The XB model is what we consider a budget builders grade unit. Has many, if not a the components that an XR unit but the warranty on the equipment is much better for the small difference in price.

XL equipment has a better warranty still, usually 10-years on the parts and 2-years on the labor. I would recommend getting the mfg's extended warranty on the equipment. I prefer OEM extended warranties over after-market types. I know some contractors actually self-insure the warranties but........... Check local laws on the extended warranties. Some jurisdictions consider extended warranties insurance and regulate them differently.

With heat pumps humidifiers have a real challenge and are a source of many complaints. Standard humidifiers, forced and bypass types, require the system's heat to evaporate the water to provide humidity and heat pumps don't provide the heat, unless the aux. heat is on. Steam type humidifiers have their own heat source and work indecently of the heating system. Some homes have a lot of space and drains on humidity like extensive woodwork and the humidifier needs to be sized for the home.

Steam humidifiers are more expensive to buy, install and run but they do do the job better. Honeywell has a newer model that adapts better to different systems and installations and has lower maintenance involved. They haven't been out long enough to have a service history.

All,

Hoping for some advice on several issues tied to replacing a furnace.

1. Our home currently has about 1200 sq ft to heat, but eventually there might be a 400 sq ft addition to add to the load of the furnace - could I install a furnace now that could properly heat 1200 sq feet and then go up to 1600 sq ft? We're getting quotes for 75K to 90K BTUs, and no one has hesitated to give a quote for this scenario but some of the postings above seem to indicate that the size is not so flexible..

2. I'm looking at Rheem RGPQ (two stage 80%) for our home- this manufacturer seems to have a good reputation and has received good ratings. However, my understanding from the bid I received is that the installer is offering a 1 year labor warranty, which seems inconsistent with what I'm reading in this forum. Should this be a concern? Other quotes I'm getting from other sources for other manufacturers have a longer labor warranty. Do labor warranties vary with installer? I believe the bid also offered warranties for  parts - 5 yr and heat exchanger of  20 yrs.

3. Almost everything in the forum points to the importance of contractor selection, but I am at a loss as to how to determine which installer to choose.  Are references really useful? It seems they'll only give out the customers who are likely to recommend them. Asking around hasn't helped - everyone I know who's had a heater installed only did so when selling their home to fix  inspection findings.

4. Also, |I'd been thinking I needed a two stage but another contractor downplayed the two stage – said they usually went to high anyway for homes over 1,000 sq ft – any thoughts?We  don't plan to go with a 90% because the furnace is in the center of the home, we have a slab foundation, and there seems to be no easy way to put in the drain. And I don't think our bills warrant the extra cost for a 90%.

Any input would be greatly appreciated.

Thank you Robert!  A friend who is a contractor in another part of the state just told me yesterday that the humidifiers can be problematic, and require consistent maintenance (cleaning, etc.) or they'll essentially be junk in 6 months.  So your input on humidifiers is quite helpful.

I've received quotes on Carrier as well, since my last question.  There is an "anniversary pkg" available with a local dealer, which uses a Comfort 16 heat pump paired w/a variable speed air handler, plus Performance series Thermidistat, Ultraviolet lamps and Air purifier.  They say they will clean the ducts, and include a 10yr warranty on parts, labor and compressor.   If order it before Nov. 17 I get a $250 rebate.

My friend told me to ask them to throw in a "smart heater" instead of the 15KW heater pkg, and suggested I ask them to perform a manual j-load analysis... which no one has done before giving me a quote.  Most have said they'd replace my 2.5 ton with a 2.5 ton, but one has recommended an increase to a 3 ton outside unit.  They quoted a bypass humidifier for an additional $600.

Another quote was for the Carrier Infinity 16 system, which would cost me about $1200 more (after a $1200 rebate before the 17th), without the air purifier, but I have learned the Inifinity product is 2-levels up:  base product is the builder grade, then Comfort series (which is not as quiet), then Performance series, then Infinity.  I'm not quite sure what's worth it! 

My friend also has suggested that, if I can wait until February, I can probably get a  better price, even w/o rebates, because the dealers will need to keep their people working.

SO, any recommendations?

I would discount any contractor that hasn't done a Manual J or similar heat/load calc. In most cases it isn't that involved and can be enlightening as when they are done usually suggestions can be made to improve the home, as far as cutting down on heat loss/gain. The interaction with customers while doing it can often remind the customers of questions or problem areas they might have and help the contractor fine tune recommendations.

Humdifiers do require some maintenance and they also depend quality water to be more problem free. We have be trying the new Honeywell steam humidifiers out and they do address water quality with that product. But we have had some small issues right out of the box so the jury is still out on them. Humidifiers can help with dry air problems and can also allow you to comfortable at lower heat settings. Moisture holds heat, same thing that makes you uncomfortable in the summer works the other way in the winter.

UV lights, in my opinion, are really only good for keeping the indoor coil clean(er). Some mfg's I've spoken to don't like them because a the chance of damaging some components. Carrier's air cleaner looked pretty good, the Infinity model, with low maintenance.  But I always worry about pressure drops across the filters. If they can, have them check the duct work as far a being sealed and having proper airflow-that's where the real efficiency can be lost no matter what system you buy.

Which part of the country are you?

 

hi Robert,

did you use bonfe, cause it sound like the same bs they gave me word for word its all about the install. how is it running for you. I cant find a list of best to worst as far as goodman, carrie, fuud im still searching any suggestions.

I'm in Roanoke, Virginia.  Thanks for the feedback.  The guys who handle Carrier were willing to do a j-analysis, which you're right gave me some important feedback about things to upgrade in my home.  The ductwork over the garage ceiling (under the bedrooms) is uninsulated for one.  They wanted me to go to a 3 ton instead of a 2.5, b/c of a 2.81 result of their calculations.  They said the ductwork is built for a 3-ton, but the system I have now is 2.5.  I may opt to save the $800 difference, stay with the 2.5  (I have a 1550 sq ft ranch, basement partially finished & heated by baseboards), and look into insulating better.  Does that sound reasonable?  Oddly, 2 contractors measured my house at approx 1700 sq ft (one of them is the j-analysis one), so I went out over the weekend and measured it myself.  I got 1550.  I have had quotes for Trane and for Carrier.  The Carrier pkg includes cleaning all the ductwork and installing an infinity air purifier.  What they've essentially done is developed a pkg with a Comfort series heat pump paired with a Performance variable speed air handler, UV, and air purifier, added a 10 yr parts, labor, compressor warranty, 2 follow-up services and ductwork cleaning.  I've been told by a friend who sells both Trane and Carrier that it looks like they've put together a good system, but he wants me to ask for the Smart Heater pkg. instead of the all on/all off aux. heater.  He has the carrier infinity system in his house.  But I remember Chad, in postings of a year ago, said that Trane has the best heat pump/ac unit.  Is that true?  I can't imagine my friend would've put the carrier system in his home if it were true, since he carries both!  I am about to do it today, b/c of rebates, but I'm feeling quite daunted by the whole thing!

I've seen few duct systems in residential use that a real duct cleaning could help. In most cases the cleaning either was lip service or stirred up particulate that was an inconvenience to say the least. Especially with ductboard systems, (compressed fiberglass ductwork. In extreme cases it has been more effective to replace part or all of the ductwork.

If you go to the 3-ton system and if your duct system has the ability to handle it I would recommend looking at a 2-stage system. The room over the garage will be hard to keep at the same temp as the other areas. Using a thermostat the can intermittently turn on the blower, independent of the heat/cool system, will help balance that area out. A variable speed blower with the fan on on can help, but there are some drawbacks in the heating mode.

If you have a good contractor you trust then I would trust his judgement on the equipment you use. I have a Trane in my house, existing when we bought it, installed by some hacks. The Trane brand didn't help their lousy install. I'd rather have a budget brand installed properly. We all can't be perfect and how you stand behind what you do, (and make right something that is wrong) that counts.

Mention the difference in measurements and see what the difference was. Things like shading, (by overhang roof lines), types of doors, windows, location of ductwork (attic, interior, basement, crawlspace), as well as home and duct insulation and duct sealing, can all influence the size of the system the a proper Man J load-calc would suggest. I had a big home recently that one of the distributors did a load calc on for me that was way off from what I had calculated. The just went by basic sizing of rooms and windows.

Your right, it is intimidating to have to go through this, it's not like a new countertop, but your going about it the right way.

 

Hello -

Yours will be a most involved undertaking !

Consider the possibility of even hiring a licensed, professional Mechanical Engineer ( or firm) to do an extensive study / evaluation of the entire project.

Those 'baseboard' elements in the lower level sound as tho they must be electric? Not a bad concept, particularly IF that area is not fully-heated or full time. It doesn't need to be included in the A/C plan, either.

Be very careful about any 'whole house' humidifier ! IF not done very well, it can do irreparable damage / molding to the home.

Those great sounding warranties are mostly just that ... sound wonderful BUT short on substance !

100 % Labor is usually not included .... annual or more-often periodic "inspections" at terrific costs are sometimes
hidden within the fine print!

Variable speed blowers are hugely-costly to replace & do not save their added original or replacement costs in the electrical power saved.

Federal-mandates have brought about many items which have Not been truly cost-effective , particularly from the home owner's viewpoint. Power exhausts, electronic ignition, those variable speed motors, more theoretically-efficient combustion chambers, etc., all sound great but have Not proven to be so during the transitions from traditional furnaces.

Most combustion chambers are lifetime but Not the labor required to remove the old one / install the replacement unit.

Thank you, both Robert and Emmett, for some very good ideas on things to consider.  Ultimately, I just have to bite the bullet and go with what seems to be reasonable, given all the hype and the numerous options... and you're right, ultimately it comes down to the contractor.  At least a couple of people whose opinions I trust have worked with these folks and say they're trustworthy and reputable and will take care of their customer.  So, bottom line, it comes down to that.  I'm ordering it today, and will have to simply let it be done....   My friend had suggested a 2-stage compressor, but the cost was so high, I felt it was beyond what I am prepared to invest.  So I think this is probably a next-best thing. 

Thanks for such valuable help! 

I am In the process of replacing a 14 year old lennox pulse furnace -the heat exchanger is leaking pressure.  I have estimates on two comparable systems one Lennox ,the other Trane.  The prices are close enough that I can rationally choose either.  The issue is cold air return ducting system. At present I have two cold air return registers one of which is partially blocked by furniture.   Since I will be purchasing a 94 or 95% efficient  variable speed blower and two stage heating furnace, I would like to know if that is sufficent.  The Trane representave Insists that the higher efficiency furnaces require another register to work properly .  The lennox representative states that it isn't necessary- that enlarged ducting around the furnace is sufficent. .  I am in a quandry because i believe that both men are telling me what he believes to be the truth.  The current cold air return system has worked fine for the air conditioning system.  Any comments would be appreciated. 

If they are not measuring the airflow with the proper instruments they are guessing.

That being said, I have seen very few systems or homes that could not benefit from more return air. If you want to gain efficiency & comfort, proper airflow is the 1st place to start. Plus, unlike the equipment, which gets more complicated with higher efficiency models, ductwork, designed and installed correctly, is not something that will breakdown on you.

I believe the Lennox has a warranty program for the Pulse heat exchangers. You may be able to use a credit for the heat exchanger against a new Lennox system, if that is the contractor and system you choose.

Hi There,
I have read some of your comments regarding furnaces on the Consumers Report website. I wonder if you might be able to give me some advice regarding my situation.
I live in a 3,000 sq foot home in Toronto, Ontario. My home is 19 year old and my old original Keeprite furnace needs replacing because there is a crack in the Vestibule plat above the burners.
Keeprite used to have a mfg plant here in Canada, but now only in the states. I believe that it is the same company as Heil.

I have 2 quotes for new systems and wanted your advice.

1) My utility company Direct Energy is recommending the new Trane XV95 (97% efficiency), including a 15 year extended warranty for $6800 Canadian, installed. There is a "Eco" rebate program offered by the Canadian government
that would give me $1000 back if I were to install a new furnace that is at least 95% efficient, and thus my net cost would be $5850.
2)My private contractor who used to service my old unit is actually suggesting that I go with a new Keeprite (Heil), model VS90 (92% efficiency) that comes with a 7 year warranty, for $4000, installed.
This chap claims that the Trane units are poorly built when compared to the Keeprite.

From my internet-based research, I seem to conclude that the Trane, is probably a superior product, since it is more efficient and comes with a better warranty. Now it is 50% more money, so is it really worth that???
I would really appreciate your comments.
Sincerely,
-----------------------
Charles Knapp MD FRCPC

Is this for a furnace only or other work too?

I think that chap is blowing smoke, just hope it doesn't end up being in your home.

We purchased a Goodman about 7-10 years ago.  It is so loud that we think it's thundering when it comes on.  Not too pleased, glad they have improved. 

We were told by our contractor that it was equal to the more popular brand names.  Wish we had chosen another.

Goodman has improved over the last few years. They are now utilizing more of Amana's technology. However, in both studies that  "Consumer Reports"  conducted, they were ranked last in frequency of repair. "American Standard", has consistently been ranked first.                                                                                                                                                                                                    A little known fact in the HVAC industry is that manufactures usually have more than one product with two names.  ie..  American Standard and Trane, same product different color. Carrier and Bryant, Ruud and Rheem, York and Coleman, etc..                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      After all is said and done, who does the work is more important than what the product is. Just make sure your contractor is licensed and bonded. Never pay until all work is satisfactorily completed.                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Finally; choose a system that has the highest efficiency with the least amount of bells and whistles.                                                                          

Older Goodman units were known for the flimsy cabinets, little consideration for noise seemed to be made. To me it seemed that extra care had to be used when installing Goodman vs other brands in order to avoid noise and other issues. But the average contractors that Goodman was popular with and seemed to target, in my opinion, were the ones who showed little care when installing.

Goodman outdoor units, heat pumps and air conditioners can have minor things done to them to make them quieter. Often we do it during maintenance, but when you have a neighborhood full of them, summer evening outside on the deck can be loud.

The Trane is much better quality equipment.

Chad, my 18 yr. old Amana 90% is starting to rust around the top exchanger and some rust inside the exchanger tubes.  Is this dangerous and if not, how long before I should think about replacing?  My heating guy recommends the Tempstar single stage.  If I go with two stage do I need a different thermostat?  If I go with a Rheem do you have a model # for 120,000BTU?Thanks