As I alluded to earlier, in a different thread, Car and Driver recently performed a winter tire test, up in upstate Michigan.  I was as surprised at the outcome of their test as I was some of the rankings in the most recent CR test.  They tested four Michelin tires, the ultra high performance (but still all-season) Pilot Sport A/S, the Pilot HX MXM4 (as the all-season tire), thee Pilot Alpin PA3 (as the performance winter tire), and the X-Ice Xi2 (as the standard winter tire).

The results in snow were predictable.  The Pilot Sport A/S was the worst performer, with a 30-0 MPH braking distance of 123 ft.  The best tire, the X-Ice Xi2, cut that down to 83 ft, which represents a dramatic difference.  The acceleration times were similarly much better with the winter tires, on snow.

But that's where the predictability ended.  Their other testing was done on wet pavement and dry pavement, both noted by the article as 23*F.  Both the Pilot Sport A/S and Pilot HX MXM4 performed very close together in both of these non-snow conditions.  Braking from 60-0 MPH came in 128-130 ft between the two on dry pavement, and in 139-140 ft on wet pavement.  But the Pilot Alpin PA3 trailed both tires by non-trivial amounts (141 ft on dry and 145 ft on wet).  And the X-Ice Xi2 is even less impressive, posting a 158 ft braking distance on dry pavement and 174 ft on wet.  That's a 25% increase over the Pilot Sport A/S on cold wet pavement, and near that on cold dry pavement.

All this seems to fly in the face of all the advertisements that claim that winter tires are safer than all-seasons below 45*F.  It's not just this article either, but CR has mentioned before that they've found similar results from earlier testing.  Not only that, but the highest-performing warm weather tire here, the Pilot Sport A/S, is still the best performer well below freezing, as long as there's no snow.  Ironically, the article states that Michelin insists that these tires not be called "snow tires", that they're "winter tires", designed to be superior to all-season tires under a variety of conditions.  The data appears to suggest that the amount of snow one gets should play a pretty heavy role in the decision to use winter tires, because even on dry/wet conditions at well below freezing, not only do they appear to have no advantage, but they seem to have a disadvantage when compared against their warmer weather cousins.

Thoughts?  Comments?

Maybe not too surprising, since the X-Ice XI2 did poorly in conditions other than snow and ice, and the Pilot Alpin PA3 would have been a fairly low ranking tire based on dry and wet braking and handling if compared in the performance all season group, based on the recent CR tests.  Though the recent CR tests do not include the Pilot Sport A/S or Pilot HX MXM4.  Too bad C&D didn't throw in a summer tire of similar nominal performance level as one of the all season tires for comparison, at least for the dry and wet tests.

Perhaps the test results in sub-freezing dry and wet conditions mean that the all season tires just do not degrade that much in performance due to cold (when there is no snow or ice).  Though in such cold conditions, wouldn't the likelihood of ice be greater, since any water on the road has a greater chance of freezing?

I read the article last night after posting the Edmunds article.  Comments:

- Too bad they did not try a summer (Pilot Sport PS2 is my choice) tire on dry and wet conditions.  We know it has poor snow performance, but how poor on dry and wet cold conditions hasn't been quantified.

- Testing was on snow.  Where was ice testing?

- The test facility sounds very impressive.  Maybe CR can "rent" it for their next winter tire test.

- Results on dry conditions are clear:  all season is better than winter tire. 

- Result on wet conditions are contrary to other test (edmunds) and previous Car and Driver test (Goodyear tires were used), where winter tires provided superior wet braking capabilities.  Looking at the CR rating, it seems that performance winter tires brake just as well as H rated all season tires in wet conditions.

- For someone who drives a RWD car in cold but usually non-snow/ice conditions, what type of tire does one use during winter?  Go with performance winter tire or a good all season as such as the MXM4?  It's still not that clear to me. 

- For someone who drives a RWD car in cold but usually non-snow/ice conditions, what type of tire does one use during winter?  Go with performance winter tire or a good all season as such as the MXM4?  It's still not that clear to me.

It was pretty clear to me.  C&D noted that the X-Ice would be a good choice for "daily blizzards, or Fargo, ND".  I tend to agree.  For the majority of folks who deal with moderate snowfall, but do at least half of their driving on wet or dry pavement, seems like a good all-season tire is the best choice.  The snow tir...er...winter tire provided a significant advantage on snow.  The all-season tire provided a significant advantage on wet and dry pavement (even COLD wet/dry pavement).  The way I read that is, one would ask one's self how much driving is done on actual snow?  And how much driving is done after the roads are generally clear?

You also, obviously, have the cost issue.  Done properly, you've got at least $400 or so in tires, and another few hundred, give or take, on winter wheels.  If, after all that is spent, the snow tires' only demonstrable benefit is actually on snow (and/or ice), it seems that would really influence my decision.  If I lived in Alaska, for sure I'd consider them.  But if I lived in Michigan, for example, where roads are generally cleared but you have occasional snow you will drive through (at least in the L.P.), I don't think I'd be so inclined, at least not with the data we have.

My interest in the article was chiefly in the non-snow testing.  We all know the snow tires are going to do best on snow.  But most all of the marketing indicates that these tires are also safer on cold pavement in general (45*F is usually the threashold given).  With very little objective testing being done in this area, and now with C&D's apparent contradiction to that recommendation, that at least makes the statement questionable to me.

More testing?  I'd like to see the same test run at 0*F, or a similar REALLY cold temperature.  For sure 23*F is cold, much colder than the typical 45*F given as the change-over temperature, but it's still not as cold as many see in the winter.  If all-season tires still showed an advantage at 0*F or less, or at least didn't fall behind the snow tires, then the results would be even more clear to me.

Thoughts?  I recognize that some of the posters on this forum are using font color as their "signature" but it is hard to read.

Here's your original post in black:

As I alluded to earlier, in a different thread, Car and Driver recently performed a winter tire test, up in upstate Michigan.  I was as surprised at the outcome of their test as I was some of the rankings in the most recent CR test.  They tested four Michelin tires, the ultra high performance (but still all-season) Pilot Sport A/S, the Pilot HX MXM4 (as the all-season tire), thee Pilot Alpin PA3 (as the performance winter tire), and the X-Ice Xi2 (as the standard winter tire).

The results in snow were predictable.  The Pilot Sport A/S was the worst performer, with a 30-0 MPH braking distance of 123 ft.  The best tire, the X-Ice Xi2, cut that down to 83 ft, which represents a dramatic difference.  The acceleration times were similarly much better with the winter tires, on snow.

But that's where the predictability ended.  Their other testing was done on wet pavement and dry pavement, both noted by the article as 23*F.  Both the Pilot Sport A/S and Pilot HX MXM4 performed very close together in both of these non-snow conditions.  Braking from 60-0 MPH came in 128-130 ft between the two on dry pavement, and in 139-140 ft on wet pavement.  But the Pilot Alpin PA3 trailed both tires by non-trivial amounts (141 ft on dry and 145 ft on wet).  And the X-Ice Xi2 is even less impressive, posting a 158 ft braking distance on dry pavement and 174 ft on wet.  That's a 25% increase over the Pilot Sport A/S on cold wet pavement, and near that on cold dry pavement.

All this seems to fly in the face of all the advertisements that claim that winter tires are safer than all-seasons below 45*F.  It's not just this article either, but CR has mentioned before that they've found similar results from earlier testing.  Not only that, but the highest-performing warm weather tire here, the Pilot Sport A/S, is still the best performer well below freezing, as long as there's no snow.  Ironically, the article states that Michelin insists that these tires not be called "snow tires", that they're "winter tires", designed to be superior to all-season tires under a variety of conditions.  The data appears to suggest that the amount of snow one gets should play a pretty heavy role in the decision to use winter tires, because even on dry/wet conditions at well below freezing, not only do they appear to have no advantage, but they seem to have a disadvantage when compared against their warmer weather cousins.

Thoughts?  Comments?

See what I mean?

I apologize if you couldn't see it clearly.  My eyes must not be as sensitive.  This is in a darker blue.  Is it easier for you to read?

Yeah, darker blue vibrates less but it's still not as easy on the eyes as black. I didn't mean to be critical of your post. I like your posts but several long paragraphs in blue type causes shimmering and that makes it hard to read.

See the examples below, nothing is as easy to read as black:

Lorem ipsum dolor sit amet, consectetur adipiscing elit. Nunc quis sapien at purus fringilla porttitor. Quisque arcu mi, venenatis mollis auctor vel, sollicitudin sed leo. Etiam aliquam dui eu magna aliquam interdum. Vivamus ultricies justo ut sapien aliquet vitae viverra leo congue.

Lorem ipsum dolor sit amet, consectetur adipiscing elit. Nunc quis sapien at purus fringilla porttitor. Quisque arcu mi, venenatis mollis auctor vel, sollicitudin sed leo. Etiam aliquam dui eu magna aliquam interdum. Vivamus ultricies justo ut sapien aliquet vitae viverra leo congue.

Lorem ipsum dolor sit amet, consectetur adipiscing elit. Nunc quis sapien at purus fringilla porttitor. Quisque arcu mi, venenatis mollis auctor vel, sollicitudin sed leo. Etiam aliquam dui eu magna aliquam interdum. Vivamus ultricies justo ut sapien aliquet vitae viverra leo congue.

Lorem ipsum dolor sit amet, consectetur adipiscing elit. Nunc quis sapien at purus fringilla porttitor. Quisque arcu mi, venenatis mollis auctor vel, sollicitudin sed leo. Etiam aliquam dui eu magna aliquam interdum. Vivamus ultricies justo ut sapien aliquet vitae viverra leo congue.

Thanks for all your post.  As far as color of fonts, black is easiest to read.    


To personalize post, why not add emoticons?

 

No apology required: no offense taken!  I agree that the black is easiest to read.  I like to change the color so I can go back in various threads and quickly see if/what I've previously written.  I'll just stick to changing the font.  I'm writing this now on my laptop (previously was on my desktop) and on the laptop, I do see the additional challenge the color provides.

You should also consider what conditions are the most prone to a car accident.

I may drive more often on dry pavement in winter, but it's usually under a snowfall that I need all adherence I can get.  So i can sacrify a lot of dry adherence for more winter adherence.

As for the cost of snow tires, my summer tires usually don't wear when I'm running on snow ones...